How to Support Someone Struggling with Self-Harm | Lisa Sugarman
Episode # 21
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) is an author, a nationally syndicated columnist, a 3x survivor of suicide loss, a mental health advocate, and a crisis counselor with The Trevor Project.
You can access the directory of resources she has compiled at her website linked below.
“It’s just a very unique kind of grief to deal with.”
Summary
In this episode of Life After Trauma, host Jessica Vanrose speaks with Lisa Sugarman, a crisis counselor and author, about her personal experiences with suicide loss and the importance of discussing mental health openly. They explore the nuances of grief, the significance of language in suicide prevention, and the vital role of support systems and resources for those in crisis. Lisa emphasizes the need to hold space for loved ones and the importance of feeling and processing grief rather than repressing it. The conversation highlights the power of connection and the impact one person can have in reducing the risk of suicide.
Takeaways
Lisa Sugarman is a three-time survivor of suicide loss.
Grief from suicide is a unique and complex experience.
Language matters; we should avoid saying 'committed suicide.'
Asking direct questions about suicidal thoughts is crucial.
One supportive person can significantly reduce suicide risk.
Grief is an expression of love and should be acknowledged.
Sitting in grief allows for healing and processing emotions.
Holding space means being present and non-judgmental.
Crisis resources like the 988 hotline are essential for support.
It's important to reach out for help when needed.
“We need to stop saying committed suicide.”
Chapters
00:00 Lisa's Unique Story of Loss
06:07 Understanding Grief and Its Nuances
09:52 The Impact of Language on Suicide Awareness
12:41 Supporting Loved Ones in Crisis
18:59 The Role of Crisis Resources
19:46 The Best Way to Help Someone Struggling
24:45 The Power of Connection in Crisis
26:12 The Importance of Holding Space & How to Do That
31:28 Navigating Conversations About Mental Health
36:01 Sitting in Grief: A Necessary Process
38:51 Living with Loss: Weaving Grief into Life
42:58 Final Thoughts & Advice
“I learned that truth 35 years after he passed.”
Transcript
Jessica Vanrose (00:00.882)
Welcome or welcome back to Life After Trauma. I'm your host Jess, a certified trauma informed life coach. If you're new to the podcast, we bring women from around the world together through conversations that will empower, support and inspire you on your healing journey. This week on the podcast, we have Lisa Sugarman, author, a three time survivor of suicide loss and a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project, which is an organization for suicide prevention.
Today, Lisa and I will be discussing suicide and prevention resources for those struggling and loved ones who have been impacted. We'll also be talking about grief and why it's important to sit in your grief instead of repressing it. Hi, Lisa. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm great, thank you. Can we start with you sharing your story?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (00:48.456)
Hi Jess, how are you?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (00:56.544)
Yeah, of course. So my story is a little bit unique in the sense that I mean, you mentioned it, I'm a survivor, three time survivor of suicide loss. And one of the biggest, most profound losses in that group of three was my father, who I lost when I was 10 years old.
But the twist that my story takes is that I didn't learn that my father had died by suicide until I was 45 years old. So I learned that truth 35 years after he passed away. The narrative that I was given at the time when I was 10 is that he had died of a heart attack.
And it was in that moment what my mother felt she needed to do to protect me from more pain than the pain I was already going through just having lost him. So as a result of that loss and another loss of a close, close family friend, we grew up together. lived together out of college and he passed away. Took his life three years ago, a little over three years ago. So it's
It's been a lot of time in that kind of grief and a lot of lived experience and a lot of kind of shattering and putting pieces back together and you kind of touched on a little bit of the work that I do in the world now because of that and you and I were talking before in the green room about
how much my of my focus and the work I do has changed so much in the past couple of years because I started sharing my story. And it has led me to people like you and platforms like this to be able to continue to try and change this narrative on suicide.
Jessica Vanrose (02:45.18)
Yeah, it's such important work that you're doing, honestly. Like we had mentioned before, it's a topic that not a lot of people talk about. And I think that it affects more people than we realize. And it's so important what you're doing, sharing your story and all of the resources that you've compiled. yeah, how, what were you feeling when
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (03:01.087)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (03:14.452)
you found out the truth about your dad's death.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (03:19.508)
I mean, you have to understand just for context that it was completely by accident. I was never supposed to find out. So my mother had kind of made that decision in that moment to both tell me that it was a heart attack and to keep the secret of the suicide. And really I found out because I had a very unexpected conversation.
Jessica Vanrose (03:26.432)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (03:44.54)
with a cousin just in passing. It was like a totally light -hearted, we were catching up, hadn't seen each other for long time, and she was asking about my kids and one thing led to another and kind of out of the blue she asked me if my father
actually asked if my kids had had any of the same mental illness that my father had. And I had, I had no idea what she was talking about. I didn't, I had no idea what she was referring to because I was unaware of any mental illness. My mother was unaware of any mental illness. And in that moment, I, you know, I was puzzled by it, but didn't really, you how sometimes somebody catches you off guard and it's just out of context and you just aren't prepared to really dive into it. So you just kind of
let it sit and I let it sit and I didn't really react to it and it was shortly after that conversation I was with my mom and I didn't go running to my mom to say what's going on what do I not know
But in another conversation with her, it kind of came out and without really even anticipating having this conversation, I asked if my dad had been depressed and she said yes. And before I knew what I was saying or why I was even saying it, I asked if he had taken his life and she said yes. And that just, you know, it was to answer your question, it was just the most surreal and impossible moment of my life. I mean, it was...
Jessica Vanrose (05:00.15)
Hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (05:10.084)
you'd have to know my dad to have known that he was just this this beautiful, kind, loving, even -keeled man. He was a family man. was the hardest -working guy I knew. He was funny and he was just the greatest guy I knew. And for him to have been suffering like that...
and suffering silently like that. like, it was just, didn't compute. It just was impossible, but it was the truth. And we just, you know, it just kind of tore me all the way down to the studs. And, you know, I continue to build myself back up. I'm doing that 10 years later, 10 years after finding this out, I'm still doing that. And will always continue to do that. But, you know, now I know obviously the truth and...
Jessica Vanrose (05:30.497)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (05:58.514)
now is what do I do with it? What do I do with that truth? How do I make that worth something? And so that's why I'm having these conversations. That's why I'm out advocating in crisis counseling. I want to be the person on the other end of the phone now when someone calls in their crisis, or I want to have the resources when someone's struggling. So, you know, that's where I'm at and that's where I came from.
Jessica Vanrose (06:21.61)
Yeah, any loss is a hard loss, but I have not lost anybody to suicide, but I have to imagine that that just cuts even deeper than a regular loss.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (06:24.586)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (06:34.238)
Yeah, it's, you you don't want to minimize any kind of loss. You said it yourself, a loss is tragic and so heartbreaking and stays with you forever and you're always grieving. There are little nuances, so many little nuances about a suicide loss that are just, they just don't exist if someone dies of a heart attack or someone has cancer and you know, those are tragic and terrible things, but there's no...
There's no stigma attached to that. There's no questioning attached to that. There's no second guessing yourself and what did I miss or what could I have said or done? Those elements just don't exist. So it's just a very unique kind of grief to deal with. each one, I I've dealt with three of them now and each one is so different. They're so, so different.
You know, in some cases we knew someone was struggling and in some cases we didn't.
Jessica Vanrose (07:31.818)
Yeah, I listened to a podcast interview that you did. my goodness, I'm blanking on the name. was Wellness, the Wellness podcast. Yes. And there was a part in there that you had said that really got me and it was you were, so it was the day that your dad passed.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (07:44.262)
wellness podcast.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (07:58.688)
Mm
Jessica Vanrose (07:59.32)
and you're coming home on the school bus and your mom came out and walked you down the street to, I think you said your aunt's car. And you had said in this interview, you had said it like it made no sense for me to think this, but I was immediately like, where's dad?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (08:01.684)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (08:08.778)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (08:20.606)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny, certain moments of your life you remember, when I'm hearing you, it's not often that I hear someone recalling that to me. That's my memory. I'm usually the one sharing it. So it's a very unique experience right now to hear you say it to me. And I so appreciate you taking the time to listen to that. But in that moment, I remember it like it was this morning. And...
Jessica Vanrose (08:22.503)
And.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (08:47.48)
There was no reason at that time of day, my father worked, I lived, you we're just outside of Boston and my father worked in the city every day. So he would never have been home to get me off the bus. That was just not a thing that happened. It was always much later. And so there was no reason for me to ask. And it's so interesting the way our instincts lead us in certain ways.
Yeah, it was, well, what I I'm not sure if I mentioned it in that interview that you listened to, but in that moment of getting off the bus and seeing my mother, my house was directly in front of where the bus was parked. And I could see a line of cars in front of my house and.
Jessica Vanrose (09:24.108)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (09:26.492)
They were, I knew that was my Uncle Milton's car, that was my grandmother's car, that was my Aunt Harriet's car. Everyone's cars were there. It was two weeks after my 10th birthday. And in that split second, I was convinced they were having a surprise party for me for my birthday. And she scooped me up and walked me over to my aunt's car and told me the worst thing I'd ever heard in my life.
Jessica Vanrose (09:45.484)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I can't like I, I honestly can't imagine. But yeah, when I heard you say that I wrote down in my notebook, I was like, how interesting is it that like, we just we just instinctually know when something is off when something's wrong. I found that really interesting.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (10:07.507)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (10:11.412)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (10:16.876)
Shifting away a little bit from your story, on your page I noticed that you had a comment on there saying that we should stop saying committed suicide. And I'm curious what the reasoning is and what terminology should we use instead.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (10:35.882)
Well, it's actually, I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's become a big shift within the mental health space to really focus very intentionally on language. And when you think about how we've always classified a death by suicide, we say committed suicide, like everybody says, committed suicide, we're all trained and hardwired to think of it that way because that's how it originated.
And yet, when you kind of deconstruct that, people have begun to realize that when you think about the word committed, if you just kind of take that out and isolate it, what do you think of? Like, what do you think of? You think of committed crime? Or you say you've committed some kind of a sin or something, committed an immoral act? Like, when you're using the word committed in that kind of context, it...
it kind of insinuates that it's a negative. The connotation is that it's wrong or it's bad or it's unlawful in some way. And so when then you attach it to a suicide, now all of a sudden the person who has died by suicide is now automatically stigmatized. They're automatically stigmatized as having done something bad or wrong or immoral.
Jessica Vanrose (11:49.674)
you
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (12:00.36)
And it really doesn't do that person justice. So there's been this movement within the mental health industry and community where people are saying, no, no, like words matter a lot.
And so we need to stop saying committed suicide because it gives the wrong impression. And it unfairly stigmatizes the person who now can't defend themselves or their actions. And by the way, dying by suicide is, you know, it may be against religious beliefs in some cases or against the law in other cases.
It's actually none of those things. It's the product of an illness and it's as simple as that. It's complicated obviously, but it's as simple as that in reality. And you would never wanna blame someone for making that decision that they felt they had to make because there was no other way. that's why.
we're moving away from that. And instead we say something like, a lot of people are saying, suicided now, like they suicided, which I don't say myself as often, but I'm hearing it more and more. People say died by suicide or took their life or ended their life. That's what people are saying now instead. And it just gives that person dignity in a way that they deserve.
Jessica Vanrose (12:56.502)
Okay.
Jessica Vanrose (13:05.419)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (13:10.334)
Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I honestly would not have thought about that. So I'm really happy that you had that on your page and that we could have that conversation. Yeah, thank you. So I want to talk a bit about the loved ones of people struggling with suicidal ideation. And so I had mentioned that I have a couple of stories.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (13:14.58)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (13:19.775)
Hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (13:24.412)
thank you.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (13:31.552)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (13:40.042)
So just going to share them if that's okay with you. Okay. So in my teens, I had two friends from different social circles that both attempted to take their life at separate times. Thankfully, they both called me before it was too late. But in both cases, they had already swallowed a bottle of pills before they called. And the first friend that this happened with
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (13:42.182)
Absolutely.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (14:06.385)
Okay.
Jessica Vanrose (14:09.708)
I didn't fully understand the severity of what was happening. I was 16 and she called me and asked me to pick her up. So I went and got her and brought her back to my place where I lived with my mom. My mom had gone out to visit a friend. I remember my friend saying that she was just really tired and she just wanted to sleep. So I brought her upstairs to my mom's bed because
That was the closest one. My room was farther down the hall and I was practically carrying her. So I called my mom and told her what was happening and she told me to call 911. And I went upstairs to check on my friend. I like shook her awake and told her that I was calling an ambulance. And she told me no.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (14:40.681)
Hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (14:45.141)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (15:08.012)
and I insisted, she told me that she would hate me for the rest of her life. And as an adult, maybe that wouldn't have such a big impact hearing that, but I was 16 and I was like, wow, she's my best friend. I don't want to lose my best friend. So I made the decision in that moment that I'd rather her
be alive and hate me for the rest of her life than her to die. So I called the ambulance. They asked me to check if she was still breathing. And I'm standing there in the dark room. I honestly had no idea. Like I couldn't see her body moving at all. Not a sound coming from her. My heart's like pounding. My hands are shaking.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (15:36.564)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (16:04.668)
yeah, like literally just so scared. I reached out to try and feel a pulse and I couldn't even find that. And I wasn't sure if it was just that I wasn't in the right place, you know? so the paramedics came and, rushed us to the hospital where they pumped her stomach and whatever.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (16:05.076)
What a horrible position for you to be in.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (16:12.222)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (16:22.694)
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (16:32.972)
else it is that they do. But the doctor came out after and told me that if she had gotten there even 10 minutes later that she would not have made it. And then, yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (16:47.52)
Wow. That's heavy. That's just, I'm just picturing you being 16 years old and, you know, not equipped to have an experience like that and how incredibly, incredibly traumatizing. mean, thankfully you did all the right things and you saved her life and, you know, as traumatic as it was for you.
Jessica Vanrose (17:02.539)
Yeah?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (17:11.59)
you know that this person is is living now because of you and what you did. So that's what a beautiful thing.
Jessica Vanrose (17:16.734)
Yeah, yeah, we're not friends anymore. But I have run into her, I think only once. But seeing her was just, it was such a weird moment. But yeah, and like, I think that was the biggest thing is that like, I really I didn't know that I was making all the right choices, you know, but
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (17:22.836)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (17:33.844)
I'm sure.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (17:45.758)
Hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (17:46.386)
at the end of the day it's like okay but she's alive so
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (17:49.278)
Yeah, yeah. And we talked a little bit a while ago about instinct and how they sometimes kick in and take us where we need to go.
Jessica Vanrose (17:55.591)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (18:00.648)
Yeah, for sure. So the second friend, she had attempted multiple times. And we had always gotten her to the hospital on time. But after the third attempt and the third call from her telling me that she had taken the pills, I was just emotionally exhausted and
Even as an 18 year old kid, I knew she needed more serious intervention and help. Nothing that I could provide. So I arranged with the psychiatric hospital for her to be held. And like going through my head was just, what if one of these times I can't answer her call? Or like I can't be there for some reason.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (18:31.466)
Hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (18:59.253)
I still remember driving her to the hospital and we walked into the intake center and they had told me before that like I should leave while she was talking to the desk so I slipped away past the locked door and when she realized what was happening like she couldn't she couldn't get out because the door was one of yeah
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (19:27.656)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (19:28.949)
And she was just standing there pounding on the door and screaming and crying and like it literally took every ounce of strength in me to turn around and walk away. Obviously like tears just like pouring down my face. But I share these stories to
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (19:44.606)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (19:55.222)
just show some of the really challenging decisions that need to be made by loved ones. And like I said before, I'm not certain that the choices I made were the absolute best choice, but they're both alive. Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (20:00.96)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (20:11.136)
So I guess they were. I guess they were the right choices. You know, we're not supposed to have all the answers. That's the thing that I think people have to remember. And when you're in a situation like you've been in now twice, you have to be the one. I know you're trying to be the one to help. But as that person who's trying to help, you need help.
Jessica Vanrose (20:15.852)
Yeah, so.
Jessica Vanrose (20:20.534)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (20:35.264)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (20:35.76)
And you need to know where to turn and what to do. that's another huge reason why.
people like you and I and others have to keep having these conversations because eventually these conversations will land on the people who eventually will themselves be in the situation and recall, okay, well, I heard this podcast and they said that the 988 number, that's the number we can call or the Trevor Project, that's the number we can call. So the more conversations we have where we bring all these aspects and dimensions of this to light, like the more people we reach.
Jessica Vanrose (20:53.334)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (21:10.718)
Yeah, exactly. And that was going to be my question to you. If somebody out there has a loved one that they're worried about, what is the best thing that they can do for them?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (21:14.313)
Hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (21:18.356)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (21:22.964)
You know, the very best thing.
to do for them is to be there for them, is to hold space for them. And that doesn't require as much action as people think. People get very intimidated. Like everybody wants to be there to help. Everybody wants to ask the question, are you okay? But people are really afraid of the answer that they're gonna get. And what, like in your case, you had to go through the motions of getting your friend into a treatment facility. Like that's a lot, that's a lot. And it won't necessarily
be that kind of help in every situation, in your case it was, for someone else, the first and most important thing is to ask, are you okay? And if you think that that person is suicidal...
or has done something to try and end their life or harm themselves. You need to be direct and I'm talking now to the people who are listening to you and I talk. You have to ask a very direct, very blunt kind of scary question which is are you thinking of killing yourself? And I know anybody listening to this is probably like hell no I can't. Are you kidding? I can't ask that. You have to ask that and you have to ask it exactly the way I said it. You have to say are you thinking
of harming yourself or killing yourself. And as scary as that seems, the reason why we're direct like that is because it immediately sends a message to that person who's struggling. Okay, that person's taking me seriously. They know that I'm really struggling. They know that I'm not okay. And it says that I'm a safe space. It proves that I'm someone who is there. I'm not taking it lightly. I'm in it. I wanna help. I'm present. And...
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (23:08.264)
That's the way to lead with a conversation like that is to ask that question first. Now then, who knows what kind of an answer you're going to get. I am OK, or I'm not OK, or I'm sort of OK, or I did try to harm myself. The best advice I can ever give to anybody, and I'm speaking now as someone who takes these calls on crisis lines all the time, daily.
Remember the 988 crisis and suicide hotline number. It's three digits. Put it in your phone, keep it on your brain, pass it around, put it on your fridge. The 988 number is a number that anybody can call. And it's not just for someone who is suicidal or someone who is homicidal or someone who is harming themselves. Maybe you've gone through a terrible...
life event like you've gotten divorced or you've lost a loved one or you have lost a job or a home or you're homeless or you're being abused or anything that that constitutes a mental crisis. That's why you should get in touch with with an organization like the 988 crisis lifeline. And they are the ones who will
help you. Now you can either have the person who's struggling call them directly or you can do something that's called a third -party call, which we get all the time, is like for instance if I had a friend who was struggling and they just did not have the capacity to call but they said, okay yeah, can you be with me? Can you talk to them? Sure. You get on the phone and you say, hey listen, I'm here, I'm with my friend, my friend is in crisis.
How do we navigate this? And then that call will kind of take place. You'll be kind of the conduit in that call. And it will be a third party call where you're kind of involved in that call. And hopefully eventually your friend will be, you the friend will be able to take the phone call themselves. So, you know, those are the things. Like if you think someone is attempting right now, you call 988. And, you call, actually, if you think it's an attempt, you call 911.
Jessica Vanrose (24:53.279)
Hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (25:02.005)
Right.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (25:17.6)
If they're struggling, you call 988. Yeah. That is in the United States. Yes, yes. But there is a directory. I have almost a complete directory. It's a work in progress. On my website, one of the things that I have is a resource hub. And part of that hub, have tried to accumulate all the numbers for all of the countries. I think I have...
Jessica Vanrose (25:22.45)
That's in the states, right? Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (25:44.384)
think out of 175, I think I probably have 120 or 125. So yes, 988 is for this country. And then I do have access to others if you go to my website.
Jessica Vanrose (25:57.994)
Yeah, I will leave that linked in the show notes for everybody to access. Yeah. So there was a stat that you had mentioned in the other podcast, and it was about the difference that one person listening to someone can make. Can you just talk about that a little bit?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (26:01.824)
That's great. Great.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (26:19.007)
Hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (26:23.424)
Sure, sure. So I believe the one that you're talking about comes from the Trevor Project where I volunteer.
So I'm a Lifeline counselor. take calls from people who are struggling. And for those who don't know, I know you said that they were a crisis and support hotline. What people may not know is that the Trevor Project, their main demographic is the LGBTQ community, youth in particular ages 13 to 24. We obviously will answer calls from anyone who may call, even if they're out of our demographic, of course, but our primary audience is LGBTQ youth.
The statistic refers to LGBTQ youth who are in crisis and one person having one singular person to connect to when you're in crisis reduces the risk of someone's suicide by over 40%. It's just one human being. It almost cuts the likelihood of suicide in half.
Jessica Vanrose (27:28.758)
That's huge.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (27:31.07)
Yeah, it's a pretty wild statistic when you really look at it. And that's just one person holding space or one person being a support system. And the impact that that can make is literally life changing. Yeah, it's a pretty incredible fact.
Jessica Vanrose (27:47.338)
Yeah, that is can we talk I know we did discuss already, like the question that you can ask and holding space but I'm wondering if maybe we can even just go a little bit deeper into like how it for somebody who is hearing like, okay, I need to hold space. But they're like, how do I do this? Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (27:58.015)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (28:11.648)
How do I do that? So I mean, holding space, some people might say there's an art to it. Some people might say there isn't at all. It's really just.
taking in whatever the person in crisis is saying and validating that. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, if you think they're being dramatic or not, if you think that they're somehow exaggerating or not, if you don't believe it, it doesn't matter. Take that completely out of the equation. When you're holding space for someone, you want to be non -judgmental, you want to be kind, you want to ask open -ended questions. Don't ask yes or no.
questions because when we do that the person shuts down. They give you a yes or a no and the conversation stops. Ask open -ended questions that are going to create a dialogue so that you'll get more information about like how they're feeling, what they're thinking, do they have any plans in place.
to do anything to themselves or to someone else. So that's what holding space really means. I mean, it can be as simple as just like sitting on the other end of the phone or sitting across a table and just listening to somebody talk or being there when somebody's crying, put your arms around them. You get a good sense if someone's coming to you to hold space and is looking to you for that.
You're going to know if that's the kind of person who can benefit from just like wrap your arms around that person and just say, I'm here, I'm here for it. I'm here for you. Like, let's figure it out together. I know you're struggling. It's incredible. The power that validation has because, you know, I don't, don't have to tell you, you understand, and most people listening will understand that mental illness and something like depression in particular can distort your
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (30:07.216)
your sense of reality to such an extreme degree that you think you're losing your mind and you don't think anybody understands where you're where you're at or what you're struggling with and you know it can get people to such a deep and dark
hopeless place and just having someone there saying like, I hear you. I hear it. I can hear it in your voice. I can see you're upset. What would be helpful right now? You know, can I sit with you? Can I stay with you? Do you want to go for a walk? you know, somebody who's already that stressed doesn't necessarily want to be thinking, you know, you don't want to necessarily ask them, what can I do for you? It's more like, okay.
Jessica Vanrose (30:30.828)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (30:49.926)
in this moment you think of something say like let's go for a ride let's go for a walk let's go get a coffee let's you know what i mean maybe even just those those micro acts of you know normalcy can make that person can de -escalate that person make them feel a little less stressed
Jessica Vanrose (31:09.036)
Right. And for people who maybe like, so if I had a loved one who I feel like they're struggling, but they have not expressed anything, how would you approach that conversation?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (31:24.16)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (31:28.798)
I mean, I think I don't think I would necessarily be as direct and say, are you thinking of harming yourself? I mean, if you have a sense, if you know that person and maybe that person's behavior has changed, maybe they're not reaching out as much. Maybe you're seeing signs and signals that something's just off. I mean, I would just ask. I'd be like, are you OK? Like, you, you can you want to take a walk? Do you want to go for a drive? Let's, you know, do want to hang out a little bit, go for dinner and and and have the conversation and just say. I might be wrong.
but I'm getting a sense that maybe you're not okay. And I want you to know that if you're not okay,
Like, I wanna be there to help you through it. I wanna be there to hear what's happening and what's in your head space and what do you need right now. So I mean, I think the best that any of us can ever do is just like show up authentically, show up in a way that reinforces that you're a safe place to be and that you're there for it and you wanna do whatever you can to help. And then at the end of the day, it's like you can't force someone who's not ready to disclose that,
you know, what's going on. can't force that. And it's hard. I mean, there are two, there are two very different cohorts of people. My dad was in one. And for instance, my cousin was in another where with my father, you had no idea. You have the people who like walk around the world, like they are just
you know, the happiest, most balanced and relaxed and, you know, joyful people. And they're, you know, they're a shell on the inside. That was my dad. And then, you know, my cousin had always struggled and, you know, had been in therapy and, and, and did have a lot of, you know, known issues. So.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (33:16.616)
It's real tough when it's somebody that you can't see it. When it's invisible like that, it's hard to know what to do. Or it's hard to even know that it's there.
Jessica Vanrose (33:27.038)
Yeah, for sure. I have another question for you. I'm wondering when somebody comes to us and they need us to hold space, but we don't have the capacity to do that. I like I ask because I've had this happen before. I again, I don't know if
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (33:31.828)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (33:51.327)
Mm
Jessica Vanrose (33:56.424)
if I made the right choices, but I was very honest with them. And I said, you know, I'm very sorry, but I don't have the emotional or mental capacity to, to help you right now. And I believe I asked if there was somebody else that he could talk to. But is that like, do you have any advice for
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (34:12.494)
Mm
Jessica Vanrose (34:24.904)
if that situation comes up for someone.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (34:27.68)
I think that's a great scenario to talk about because I feel like that kind of a situation is likely to come up at some point. Like we don't have an unlimited amount of capacity. You know, there's that whole saying whenever you say yes to someone else, you're saying no to yourself. And I mean, the whole issue of boundaries, like I'm 56 years old and I feel like I just finally have gotten the hang of establishing and maintaining boundaries in my life.
Jessica Vanrose (34:39.297)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (34:57.33)
I think it's first of all, whatever your capacity is like you, you can't take care of someone else if you're not taking care of yourself. And it is not selfish for you to say,
I just, I am not in a place where I can show up for you in the way that I know that you need someone. And I will help you to maybe find someone. Let me make sure that you have someone. That's where something like the 988 Crisis Lifeline or the Trevor Project comes in to play. Because what you can say is, I think what you're going through may be beyond my capacity to help. And there are ways that you can kind of wordsmith it a little bit where you're not necessarily saying, I don't have like, I don't have the
Jessica Vanrose (35:19.884)
Exactly.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (35:42.828)
bandwidth right now, the emotional bandwidth, because if you're not sure how that person, if that'll offend that person, maybe you don't say it like that. Maybe instead you choose to say, I don't know if I have the ability to help you right now. So let me find someone who can hear.
here's a place to start. Here's like, do you have a therapist? I would always check in with someone and say, hey, you, you know, I know it's a personal question, but are you working with a therapist? And is that someone that you can contact? And if it's a no, then that's when you would immediately defer to the 988 line. Absolutely. And most other, most,
Jessica Vanrose (36:19.531)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (36:27.188)
communities, cities, states have their own, like Massachusetts where I am has like the Massachusetts behavioral health line that.
you can call and if you are a resident of Massachusetts, they can even go out and bring a clinician to your house. They can help you on a much more clinical level than even the 988 line can. And a lot of states have that. Someone could call 222 and that number is almost like a directory of resources that are available. It's more like a directory than a hotline.
Jessica Vanrose (36:52.18)
Okay.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (37:06.024)
So, you know, there is always somewhere to turn, even when you don't necessarily have, and you and I talked about this earlier, like a spouse or a partner or a community or like a safety net of people, there are these organizations and we need to get people.
Jessica Vanrose (37:11.787)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (37:26.944)
comfortable knowing that those resources are there like like none of us would ever think twice if if you know our house caught on fire or There was a burglary or there was you know, or there was something you would call 9 -1 -1 immediately everybody knows What we need to do is is create the same Understanding around the 9 -8 -8 lifeline like everybody just just it's automatic. You call 9 -8 -8 if you're struggling emotionally
Jessica Vanrose (37:35.905)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (37:41.12)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (37:56.49)
Yeah, for sure. I think that's a really good point because I could see somebody maybe feeling scared to call or uncomfortable to call. Yeah. So yeah, I guess just like bringing more awareness and bringing down the stigma, you know, let's tear that down. Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (38:20.533)
Yeah, and look, you and I are doing it right now. And that's why I love these conversations so much, because we're doing it unapologetically. We're doing it from a place of genuine love and concern for anybody who may be listening to this, or anybody who may be struggling. And, you know, the more we talk about it, the more we do it in a way that normalizes it, it just becomes another thing that we talk about. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (38:45.024)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So let's shift gears here a little bit. And let's talk about the grief side of things. Can you talk about why it's important for us to sit in our grief rather than repress it?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (38:49.991)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (39:02.66)
I talk a lot about sitting in grief because I think it's something that people are just afraid of, know, we grief is such a
such an unwieldy, scary, traumatic thing to have to go through. And so I think everybody's natural instinct is like, if we lose someone we love, we know the grief is attached to that loss. And everybody just wants to kind of get through it, get through it, get through it as fast as you can. Well, I don't want to like, you know, I don't want to bust any myths here, but
I do, because grief doesn't ever stop. It just changes. It evolves. It's fluid. And we can't rush it. We can't sidestep it. Can't bury it. I mean, it's there. the way, like the path of least resistance, right, it's forward. And when
we realize that it's just a part of life. Grief is just another expression of love. And I know it's really impossible to think that way when you're in the midst of terrible grief, because it's so all consuming. But when you realize that the reason why you're grieving is because you cared about this person so much that, I don't know, there's some kind of strange comfort in that. And
Jessica Vanrose (40:05.366)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (40:27.378)
What I can say about sitting in it is that when you do kind of, you attack it head on, or you at least acknowledge it head on,
It becomes less scary because you take the power away from grief. It's kind of like you take the power away from the stigma of suicide. If we're all like hush, hush, and we don't say the word suicide and we never talk about mental illness, then when we do, it's like this big scary thing. But when we do talk about it, it's like what happens when you challenge a bully? They back down. Well, when you challenge something like the stigma of suicide or when you challenge grief, then all of a sudden you've got the power. You get to do it on your terms. And if you're like, okay, I feel like shit right now.
And I'm miserable and I'm overcome. I don't want to do anything. I don't want to see anyone. Okay, so be that. Be that. For as long as you need to be that. you know, the duration is what the duration is. It's going to be what it's going to be. But
Jessica Vanrose (41:15.882)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (41:25.492)
We get through it a lot faster when we allow ourselves to feel those feelings because now we're processing them. Now we're accepting them to some degree. But we're always going to grieve, but we won't always feel the way that we feel in that moment of intensity.
Jessica Vanrose (41:39.51)
Yeah.
Yeah. There was a way that you worded it in the last episode that I thought was beautiful. You said it was weaving that loss into your life. And it's so true, like that the loss will never go away. The grief will never go away when you lose somebody that you loved. And it is a matter of it
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (41:55.946)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (42:01.258)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (42:11.72)
exactly that just it becomes part of your life and you learn how to live with it. You learn how to deal with it. Talking about the repression part. don't know. Have you ever read the book The Untethered Soul? Okay, so I love that book and they have a whole chapter in there on triggers and it's similar.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (42:15.102)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (42:29.492)
I have not.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (42:38.484)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (42:40.916)
a little different. They're not talking about it in the form of grief, but it made me think of it because it's so true if we don't actually feel the feeling that we have and we repress it, then it's just going to keep coming back up. Then like we will have things that they use the example of like a thorn. So it's like when you suppress or repress your emotions,
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (42:58.138)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (43:09.32)
you have a thorn in you. And if somebody says something or you see something and it like it pushes on the edge of that thorn and it hurts. unless you can actually feel those feelings, like you're saying sit in that feeling, then it that like it's never going to become less painful.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (43:11.337)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (43:28.405)
Mm
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (43:35.176)
No, it won't until we process it and the human mind and the human heart has to kind of run through all these feelings before we kind of...
process them and assimilate them. then that weaving of grief just becomes a coexistence. We learn how to coexist with those feelings. Look, my dad's been gone, my dad's been gone for 46 years. And...
there are days when it feels like 406 and there are days when it feels like he was he kissed me good night last night and I still get grief attacks. I'm a big lover of the outdoors and mountaineering and my father was a huge mountaineer and that's where I got that love of nature from whenever.
I am up in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, which was our place, and I'm climbing in the White Mountains. It doesn't matter how joy, I am joyful. Like that is my place. That's where I love to be. It's where I feel most connected to the world and to my father. But yet inevitably, every single time I'm in that place, it triggers something and it makes me feel like I'm 10 years old again and he just passed away. So, you know, we have to just kind of...
allow ourselves to stay open in some way. Like the door is always kind of cracked open, you know what I mean? The door to the soul, I think, and the door to those emotions, just enough so that the stuff that needs to come and go can come and go.
Jessica Vanrose (45:00.885)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (45:13.974)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like living life with an open heart is the way that you can like truly experience everything that life has to offer when we're scared to feel something, then we shut ourselves down. And like everything comes as a positive and negative or like they have the opposites, right? So if you're going to
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (45:21.226)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (45:42.57)
be afraid to lose something or to feel that loss, then you're never really going to feel the joy or the love that comes before that.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (45:51.464)
That's right. That's right. It's a beautiful way of saying it. And it's true. It's true. Like we have, mean, I don't want to oversimplify, but we have to feel all the feels.
Jessica Vanrose (45:55.968)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (46:01.172)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Do you have any final thoughts or words of advice, anything you want to share?
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (46:10.686)
You know, I think I would just say the same thing that I lead with most of the time. It's just meet yourself where you are, wherever it is. And that is kind of like a shout out to sitting in the grief or sitting in the loss or, you know, sitting in the trauma, whatever it is, just like meet yourself where you are because you can't go back and you can't really go forward. You just kind of have to be where you are.
And I would say don't be afraid to reach out when you need help. Like that's the thing we're all taught, especially in this Western culture, like soldier on, keep going, move forward, suck it up, keep going. And that's absolute bullshit. We shouldn't be doing that. We shouldn't be teaching our kids to do that. We have to acknowledge that, you know, we are all perfectly imperfect.
on our very best of days, you know what I mean? And that, that, you know, the good comes with the bad and, we have to let ourselves take that, take that in, but we have to also learn how to reach out for help when the days aren't so good.
Jessica Vanrose (47:20.886)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think that's so important. I think you said it before, it's knowing that you're not alone. There's always going to be somebody there. If it's not a support person that you know personally, then it's a support from an organization, but somebody will always be there to talk to you if you need it and to support you and...
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (47:22.257)
Mm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (47:29.504)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (47:37.524)
Mm -hmm.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (47:44.736)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (47:50.474)
Yeah, think that's a key message is that you're not alone.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (47:51.049)
Yeah.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (47:55.208)
Right, you're not alone and there are resources, there are so many resources out there in the world for so many varieties of communities and people. And I mean, you and I talked a little bit early on before you recorded about...
One of the projects that I've worked on for a while in terms of resources is to accumulate a resource hub, a mental health resources hub that has a toolkit component to it as well. And I've done that on my website. It's a free directory. It's gotten pretty, pretty big. There are hundreds and hundreds of organizations all broken down into different categories for the BIPOC community, the LGBTQ community and veterans and the elderly and
AAPI and there are, trust me when I say, there are resources out there for anyone in any community, in any situation, going through any kind of crisis. So I know you were so kind to say that, you you would put links to all of that in the show notes. Please, if you're listening to this and you're looking for resources for you or someone you know that you care about, go there. Go to my website, take a look at it, bookmark it, share it and
and just make sure that you remember that help is out there.
Jessica Vanrose (49:23.712)
Definitely, definitely. Thank you so much, Lisa, for the work that you do and for coming on today to talk to us and share all of this great information and knowledge.
Lisa Sugarman (she/her) (49:40.008)
It's my absolute pleasure and thank you for just having a safe space like this to do that because we need more of these. We need so many more of these and this is definitely a wonderful one. So thank you for having me.
Jessica Vanrose (49:53.942)
Thank you.
