The truth about domestic violence | sarah doucette
Episode # 20
SARAH DOUCETTE is a survivor, author, and advocate for victims of intimate partner violence (IPV). Having been a victim of financial and economic abuse she is passionate about helping men and women find their voice when discussing money and finances. When she is not working or writing she is spending time with her husband and new baby.
“It’s a process, not an event.”
Summary
In this conversation, Jessica Vanrose and Sarah Doucette discuss the themes of domestic violence, emotional abuse, and the complexities of leaving an abusive relationship. Sarah shares her personal journey as a survivor, detailing her experiences with coercive debt and the importance of financial independence. They emphasize the need for support networks, the role of intuition, and the societal impact of domestic violence. The conversation also addresses listener questions about the potential for abusers to change and offers practical advice for those seeking to leave abusive situations.
Takeaways
Leaving an abusive relationship is a process, not an event.
Coercive debt can trap individuals in abusive situations.
Financial independence is crucial for survivors.
Support networks are essential for those trying to leave.
Shame is often used as a manipulation tactic by abusers.
The most dangerous time for survivors is after they leave.
It's important to believe survivors when they share their experiences.
Understanding the societal impact of domestic violence is vital.
Therapy and mentorship can aid in healing and recovery.
Trusting your intuition is key when assessing your relationship.
“Shame is a tactic they know well.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Stronger Than That
02:59 The Journey of Abuse and Survival
05:53 The Complexity of Leaving an Abusive Relationship
08:58 Understanding Coercive Debt and Financial Abuse
12:00 The Importance of Financial Independence
14:56 The Role of Therapy in Healing
18:03 Listening to Your Inner Voice
20:54 The Danger of Leaving an Abusive Relationship
24:09 Community Support and Resources
26:55 Final Thoughts and Listener Questions
“You have to trust yourself.”
Transcript
Jessica Vanrose (00:01.07)
Hi Sarah, I'm so glad you're on the podcast today and that we get to talk about a really important and prevalent topic. Thank you so much for being here.
Sarah Doucette (00:12.447)
Thank you for having me.
Jessica Vanrose (00:13.998)
Of course. So our conversation today is really centered around your memoir Stronger Than That, which was released in 2022, I believe. I will leave a link in the notes for anybody who wants to grab a copy. For people who are unfamiliar with your story, can you just give us an overview of this time in your life and your experience?
Sarah Doucette (00:23.988)
Yes.
Sarah Doucette (00:38.997)
Yeah, so kind of the 30 ,000 foot view. I got married very young. I grew up with kind of a very religious background, right? And it was very common for a lot of women to get married pretty young. So I was 20 when I married my ex -husband. The relationship very quickly kind of dissolved into...
a lot of emotional and psychological abuse escalating over the years into physical assault. The memoir itself is kind of like one part memoir, but also one part true crime. The journey of writing the book for me started shortly after receiving a phone call from my ex -husband's parents, letting me know that
his body had been found in the woods and it was under investigation whether it was a homicide or a suicide. And from there, like I just couldn't wrap my head around someone that for lack of a better term did suffer from an antisocial personality disorder. Man, that was a mouthful to get out.
so he had a lot of sociopathic tendencies, right? He had no empathy. He was very, very extremely narcissistic and, he just loved himself so much. He was, you know, so it was just so crazy to me to think that he would die by suicide. it took a couple of years for the truth to finally come out. and he did end up dying by suicide. he was looking at some.
some jail time for some crimes that he had committed, which we can talk about a little bit later. And when he was out on bond is when he died by suicide. So from there, it was just a really complex journey of emotions for me at that time. I had still been in hiding from him during that time. And so there was like the sense of relief that I didn't have to worry about him anymore. Then there was the guilt.
Sarah Doucette (02:58.203)
of feeling relief that someone was deceased. So it was a really transformative kind of time for me and I needed to unpack a lot of things. So yeah, I I think the marriage itself and the story itself, every story is unique, but it's still the same as a lot of other women out there, right? You meet the quote unquote man of your dreams and...
Jessica Vanrose (02:59.735)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (03:26.011)
It kind of catches you by surprise when things go really wrong.
Jessica Vanrose (03:32.078)
Yeah, definitely. So I do have my own story. It's not not we didn't get married. He was not the man of my dreams. But so yeah, okay. Let's just I'll tell him I'll share. So I was 18. And I was working at
Sarah Doucette (03:45.011)
Hehehe
Jessica Vanrose (04:00.11)
a very popular coffee shop in my hometown and there was a man, he was older than me, so I was 18, he was 30, and he was married and it was known that he was married but he was very clearly expressing interest and I told him that nothing would ever happen while he was still married.
A couple months go by, I started dating somebody else. And he found out about this and not that that caused this at all. But he did eventually leave his wife and came and told me and wanted me to break up with the guy that I was seeing. I didn't do it immediately. I waited maybe like another month or so and then I did. And I started dating.
Sarah Doucette (04:55.092)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (04:58.54)
the other guy, the older guy. And so I guess I feel like I feel like I might have to share this very intimate part, because I don't know if this fully will make sense without but I he knew that I was a virgin. And when I
So when I started dating him, he asked if I was still and I told him no. And he got very angry and the abuse started almost immediately. So it started with like him shoving me and then escalated into the one night, which is just like.
Sarah Doucette (05:41.823)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (05:53.452)
the craziest story, like one of those stories where you're I can't even believe that this is my life. Where I remember he made me this romantic dinner. We had, he made me this beautiful dinner with candles. We were sitting down eating. It seemed like a lovely night. And then he told me that if I ever left him, I would be floating in the river. And then
shortly after that, and I don't even know what provoked this, but it was the worst fight that we ever had. He punched me in the face, chipped one of my teeth, and had his hands around my neck. And at that point, when I remember his hands around my neck, I, in my mind, I was so defiant, like, just do it, just try and do it. But
Sarah Doucette (06:31.752)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (06:50.782)
Yeah, so it ended by like not that fight, the relationship, he ended up having to move away for work. And he wanted me to move with him. I did. But I was only out there for a couple weeks. And I, it felt like my chance to get out. So because he was he was gone. So
Sarah Doucette (07:13.557)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (07:17.698)
Thankfully, I had my own car and I took off one day when he was at work and yeah. Yeah, so.
Sarah Doucette (07:25.429)
Yeah, I know. And the The thing that people don't always realize is that it takes an average of seven attempts to officially and finally get out of one of these relationships. So that means that some people, the first time they leave, they're done and they're gone. But that means that it probably took someone 20 times, right? There's 10 million people a year that are in a relationship like this. So.
Jessica Vanrose (07:48.748)
Yeah, definitely.
Sarah Doucette (07:53.205)
It's not always as easy as just walking out the door. So I always say that leaving is a process, it's not an event. It's not something that you just decide I'm done and you leave. It takes method, takes planning, it takes support. If you can reach out to an organization that has resources and that has support, or if you have close friends or family members that haven't yet been cut off from you because
You know, I found myself very isolated and, you know, not in a good relationship with my family, having really no friends, and the only people I ever really spent time with outside of my ex -husband was his family. And I remember one time saying to his mom, and honestly, like, I had never really encountered intimate partner violence.
at that age, I didn't know, I didn't have the language. I didn't even identify as a victim of domestic violence. I really had no idea what it was or that it was a thing. And I remember saying to his mom one time, I'm like, why is he so mean to me? Like, what have I done? Like, I don't even know what I've done. And his mom like turns and looks at me and she just says, it's the woman's lot in life to suffer. And I was like,
Jessica Vanrose (08:51.554)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (08:58.915)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (09:16.842)
I read that in your book and I was like, I'm sorry, what? What?
Sarah Doucette (09:19.093)
Yeah. So like even his like family were like kind of weird and crazy. So at that point I was like, I had no real resources or anything to really get me out of there. Like I had my one cousin, but she lived a few states away. And so, you know, she and I would talk on the phone and, you know, and she really helps me when, you know,
For me, lot of the physical violence was in moments where I wasn't fully aware that I was being abused. In the book, talk about how sleep was a very weird thing for him. I supposedly tossed and turned too much. If I would wake him up, he would very groggily wake up and then punch or kick or just somehow hit me.
And not just like a little like, stop moving, right? Like my husband now, when he snores, I'm like, babe, hey, wake up. It was enough that it would like leave bruises, you know, on my hips and on my outer legs and sides. And in my head, I was just like, well, he just wakes up really cranky. You know, like I just, I could talk it away.
Jessica Vanrose (10:23.522)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (10:44.311)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (10:45.607)
It wasn't until we had actually decided that we wanted to get divorced and talking about like seeing like, okay, this is my out. So he had actually started having an affair with a woman that he worked with.
According to her, which I don't want ruin any of the story, but according to her, was mostly just talking and things never got physical. But it was enough that he was up at two or three in the morning taking phone calls outside, having to get out of bed and go walk around outside of our apartment complex and had passwords on his phone and all this stuff that he hadn't had before. And so he had a friend that had recently gotten divorced and
It was a very amicable divorce. Like him and his wife were just like, this is not working. So they peacefully split. And so he came to me one time with the idea that like, we could do that. And I can't remember if I tell this story in the book or not, cause it's been a while where he was like, let's just get divorced and then we'll throw a party and be like, surprise friends and family were divorced. What?
Jessica Vanrose (11:48.498)
you do.
Jessica Vanrose (11:58.552)
Like, what?
Sarah Doucette (12:00.265)
Who does that? Like, it's just so weird. So anyways, so I remember being heartbroken that he was talking about divorcing me because I was just like, what have I done? Like, I can't do anything right in this relationship and now he wants a divorce and I'm trying so hard. I took a few days to think about it and then I was just like, yeah, this is like, I'm like, I'm not in love with him anymore. I haven't been in a while. Like, I just...
this is what I needed to get out. And now he's focused on this other woman. So I kind of saw it as my opportunity to leave and he won't really fight me on it because I'm like, he probably just wants to go be with her. So a few days later, I went to him and I told him, said, have you thought about it anymore? And he said, no. said, well, I have and I think you're right. I think we need to get divorced. And he was just like, okay.
and then just went into our bedroom. So I went in and I grabbed my pillow. I grabbed a couple of the spare blankets and we had a spare bedroom and I went in there and I was like, I'm gonna sleep in this bedroom. Our lease is up. This was in January, end of December, early January. And I was like, our lease is up in March. So I'll just stay in that bedroom. And when our lease is up, we'll move into our own places. And you know.
Jessica Vanrose (13:20.088)
Mm
Sarah Doucette (13:31.259)
If I was watching this as a lifetime movie, I'd be like, girl, run, don't stay in the house, you know? But I just didn't I didn't have any place to go and I didn't have the resources to do anything, so I needed that time. And so it was actually our six -year wedding anniversary, January 3rd, and that was when like he had gone out drinking, he came home, I was in bed sleeping.
Jessica Vanrose (13:35.958)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (13:59.785)
I remember him coming in and waking me up to tell me that he bought me an anniversary present. And I was like, okay. And it was a pack of string cheese. And I was just like, okay, thank you. I'll have some tomorrow. Like I'm sleeping right now. And then like, he just like lost his mind and was just like slapping me in the face with this bag of string cheese.
And like saying it, it's like so shameful to me. Like it was, it's so embarrassing that like I got like laying in bed and I'm being like beaten with a package of string cheese. It was just so crazy. And, you know, and then it escalated to other things that he could find. He was just throwing things at me, books, whatever. And then he would leave the room and then he'd come back and he was, you know, on and off for hours just yelling at me and throwing things at me. At one point he finally, you know,
I just remember him grabbing me and smashing me against the wall and hitting my head against the wall. And then I just kind of got in the fetal position in the corner in the bed and was just like riding it out, right? And texting my cousin, like, I have to go. I have to leave. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I have to leave right now. And she's like, that's fine. We'll figure it out in the morning. Just go. So that's what I did. I grabbed what I could after I waited until he had fallen asleep. He snored really loud so I could like.
Jessica Vanrose (15:17.998)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (15:25.777)
I was like, okay, he's out. And I packed up what I could and I got in my little Honda Civic and I ended up living in that car for like two weeks.
Jessica Vanrose (15:35.2)
Yeah, wow. That's wild. So one, I wanted to touch on the shame part. I actually think I wrote something down about this. But I think like, it is so common to feel shame about when we're attacked. And it's like, it doesn't make sense for us to feel the shame, but it does. It is there.
Sarah Doucette (15:42.76)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (16:01.801)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (16:04.258)
But I think that having these conversations, like putting it out into the open, writing your book and coming onto podcasts and talking about it, I think that that is how we eliminate or minimize the shame. And we, I don't want to say normalize because that's not, that's not the word, but you know what I'm trying to say. Yes. Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (16:21.567)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (16:27.679)
but normalized talking about it and that the shame isn't on the survivors, it's on the person who abused them. And I think also shame is a tactic that they know well, they know how you're feeling about this stuff. I mean, there's another story in the book where like he got angry with me and buried me in a pile of dirty socks and underwear basically.
Jessica Vanrose (16:37.656)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (16:53.593)
And so they know, they want you to feel ashamed of yourself, they want you to feel dirty, they want you to feel less than, and that's part of the manipulation tactics that keep you there.
Jessica Vanrose (17:06.41)
Mm hmm. Definitely. The other thing that I wanted to branch off on because the last thing that you mentioned is that you're living in your car for the two weeks. So I know that you have touched on this in previous interviews, but I'm hoping that we can just go a little bit deeper into the topic of coercive debt and how women can protect themselves against it.
Sarah Doucette (17:12.479)
Mm
Sarah Doucette (17:30.483)
Yeah.
To protect yourself against it, you really just have to stay informed about what's going on in your personal finances. And the easiest way to do that is by using one of the, like a Credit Karma, Rocket Money, one of these programs or apps that allows you to pull your credit report for free once per year. I think there's even freecreditreport .com is a site that you can use. So you should pull it at least once a year.
If not, you know more than that That way you can track any possible changes that are going on in your credit So let's talk about coercive debt because what is coercive debt? So Coercive debt can look different in different situations. So one type of coercive debt is Well, you know your credits better than mine. Why don't we finance this thing in your name?
Jessica Vanrose (18:06.818)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (18:32.952)
Hmm.
Sarah Doucette (18:33.493)
And or why don't we get out? Let's take out a credit card. Let's take out a loan and they do it in your name and then They they use the debt very Irresponsibly So they basically saddle you to them with debt You can't go get an apartment because your credit court your credit score is so bad so For me when I left I needed to get a new car because everything was
registered and everything in his name. So when I went to go get a new car and they pulled my credit report, they gave me a 16 % interest rate. And this is back in 2012. So I was like flabbergasted because we had bought a car right when we got married and we used my credit to get it. And my credit score was like a 780. It was really good.
Jessica Vanrose (19:04.856)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (19:29.685)
So I couldn't understand. after getting the car, I went and pulled my credit report, and it was like a 420. And that's when I found that he had basically, so he talked me into financing that first car in my name. So that was financed in my name and had very inconsistent payments made on it. So all of that derogatory payment information went on my credit report.
another thing that he had done was he actually just, he had my social security number and so you could go online and finance something and you've, we've all probably filled out an online credit app before. Heck, you can open bank accounts now with completely online institutions. and so you basically just have to do like a docu sign. Nobody's notarizing your signature and if they have your social, then they assume it's you.
Jessica Vanrose (20:08.43)
Mm
Sarah Doucette (20:25.087)
So he had done that and opened up other credit cards. He financed a laptop through Dell and then never made payments on any of this stuff after like maxing everything out. He hid the mail from me, hid the collections calls, hid all of the collections attempts. So I had no idea all of this stuff was there until we got divorced. And then, you know, unfortunately I found it the hard way.
so that that's just some examples of what coercive debt can look like. so keeping an eye on your credit to make sure nothing's being opened, that you didn't approve and also, you know, just being cautious about opening things up in your name and making sure that the payments are being made and, you can make sure the payments are made through your credit report. Cause it'll show you anytime, like, you know, payments have been missed.
Another thing that I think is a really good idea, so like my current husband and I, before we got married, we went to marriage counseling, premarital counseling, and we went to a financial advisor. And we had an independent third party help us go through all of our finances, the good, bad, the ugly, like retirement accounts, what's your debt, student loans, like all that stuff.
Jessica Vanrose (21:45.4)
Mm
Sarah Doucette (21:51.774)
You know, so we had full clear understanding of where we were when we got into the relationship. And then, you know, we just keep the lines of communication open. So it's a red flag for me. If your partner at any time, if you've got joint debt, say you've got mortgage, right, for your house. If I walk up to my husband right now and I say, hey,
who's our lien holder on our mortgage and what's the balance and what's our monthly payment. Like he just pulls up that information and tells me. But if just asking those questions causes a fight, that's probably a red flag that like this person is controlling at least in finances. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're an abuser, but for me it would be a red flag that I would have to.
Jessica Vanrose (22:26.477)
Right.
Jessica Vanrose (22:31.084)
Hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (22:38.7)
Yeah, hiding something.
Sarah Doucette (22:47.765)
Seriously be like, all right, I think we need to sit down with a financial advisor. Let's get somebody in here to help us with this. And if they still won't do that, then yeah, I probably wouldn't be combining finances with them.
Jessica Vanrose (22:58.796)
Yeah, which actually brings me to either question, what do you think about bank accounts? I know it's it's probably like a personal preference probably different for everybody in every situation. But do you have like kind of a general rule of thumb?
Sarah Doucette (23:10.771)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, I do. And I know that there are those people out there that are experts on money. I know Dave Ramsey being one of them and he has like kind of a faith -based backing and his philosophy is, you're no longer a you, you're a we, everything must be combined. And that's really great for like a wealthy...
older white gentleman, like you can live by that philosophy, but as a woman, can't live by that philosophy. So the way that my husband and I have everything set up is, I call it like the four account system. At this point, we have more than four, because that's just how it's worked out. But the four basic accounts, okay, so you're gonna have joint checking. That's where you figure out what are your household bills.
You figure out what you're comfortable with as far as your share for that. For my husband and I, it's not always 50 -50. When we first got together, I made more money than him. He now makes more money than me. So what we then decided is we have our joint savings as well. So we have a savings goal for each month for the emergency fund. And then we each have our own personal checking accounts and savings accounts if we want.
The other person has no access to, don't know how much my husband has in his account. He has no idea how much I have in mine. I don't know what he spends his on. He doesn't know what I spend mine on. If I want to go buy a $20 drink at Starbucks, I'm going to go buy a drink at Starbucks. You know what I mean? That's how we have that set up. That being said, we discussed and came to terms with a number that we felt was comfortable for each of us as our fun spending money.
Jessica Vanrose (25:03.404)
Okay, yeah.
Sarah Doucette (25:05.397)
Everything else goes into the joint accounts. So, and it goes direct from my paycheck and direct from his. And then, you know, so we both were, you know, I know, I'm just, I can't just throw out a number, right? So let's say like, does, you know, $250 a week feel good for you to buy your Starbucks, to, you know, do a little shopping, go to dinner with the girls, whatever.
Jessica Vanrose (25:09.4)
Hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (25:14.52)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (25:32.565)
In which case, we get paid bi -weekly, so that would mean we each keep $500 a paycheck in our personal accounts, and that's our money to do with whatever we want to do. And then the balance of our paychecks go to pay the bills, and whatever doesn't pay the bills goes into the savings. And that's how we run our household finances. And then we still do check -ins every once in a while to be like, OK, well, how are we doing? Are we managing our debt well?
Jessica Vanrose (25:49.038)
Okay, yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (26:00.674)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (26:00.865)
all that kind of stuff, but yeah, so that's, that's the kind of plan that I follow and makes me feel the most comfortable.
Jessica Vanrose (26:08.342)
Yeah, I definitely like that. I completely agree. I don't think like in this in this day and age, I don't think that we can just be without our own bank account. Yeah, I Yeah, I think it's something that's just it's it's required. Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (26:26.771)
Right. And listen, like I think in every relationship, right, you marry someone who is a compliment to who you are and they have strengths where you have weaknesses. So it's okay if your partner, right, because this isn't just in, you know, male -female relationships. This can be, you know, in any type of partnership. Usually there's one who is kind of nerds out about the Excel spreadsheets or the budgets. That's fine.
let them have that, bless their hearts, but you should be able to ask them to see it at any time and without pause. They should be like, yeah, sure, here it is. We just have ours on a shared network, so I can go look at it anytime I want to. I don't really want to, but if I did, I could go look at it.
Jessica Vanrose (26:55.155)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (27:13.892)
Exactly. The point is that you have the option to. It's not being hidden from you. Yeah. So, well, thank you. I think those are really great tips. And honestly, I would not have thought about pulling your credit to check it and make sure that there weren't any changes happening that way.
Sarah Doucette (27:16.425)
Right.
Correct. Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (27:34.579)
Yeah, or even put a lock on it, right? If you feel like there's a question that needs to be had, you you can contact the credit bureaus and you can put a PIN number on it so that if somebody tries to start something new, like they call you and you have to give them your secret PIN. So yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do to protect yourself. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (27:50.908)
Yeah, I feel like really concerned about that.
Jessica Vanrose (27:57.068)
Yeah. Well, I think that's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. So I am wondering, I know, in your profile that I read, when we were meeting, you were talking about listening to your inner voice. And so I'm curious, what, if anything, your intuition was telling you when you were going through all of this.
Sarah Doucette (28:00.649)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (28:25.107)
Yeah, I -
Sarah Doucette (28:30.399)
So in my childhood, I grew up in a household where my voice was not that important. I'm the daughter of a narcissistic mother, so that leads to its own set of challenges. So for me, finding my inner voice is really complicated because I was always kind of told that like,
I was wrong, I'm a drama queen, I'm extra, I'm this, I'm that. And so it was very easy for me to just kind of believe whatever he told me about myself. And...
I think that the voice was there, but I always just told her to like, shut up. It was just like, no, no, you're wrong, you're wrong. You're always drama, you always overreact. So kind of like that gaslighting, right? Those are the things that you start to hear. You always overreact. you always get upset. And so it really wasn't this like big aha moment.
Jessica Vanrose (29:21.57)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (29:41.779)
your voice is telling you something, it was just like little things towards the end would start to be like, okay, like that's not okay. He's on, like who is he texting in the middle of the night? Do I feel good in this relationship? Do I actually love him? Do I wanna get out of it? And a lot of it too was just like the guilt of like divorce and the stigma of growing up in a religious environment, right? Where like divorce was a sin and you know, I...
I just like, only knew one person who got divorced and they were just like ostracized after and I was just like, my gosh, I can't get divorced either. So, but towards the end, I was just like, you know what? And if religion is a part of your journey, right? And like, if there is a God, like he doesn't want me living like this and he's giving me these thoughts of wanting to leave for a reason.
And that was kind of where I was like, you know, being religious and having faith like doesn't mean that you have to be miserable or unhappy. So yeah, eventually I kind of like released myself from that kind of guilt that was holding me back and...
Jessica Vanrose (31:03.63)
How did you release yourself from that guilt? I also grew up in a very religious family and we were taught the same thing that divorce is not an option. Very similar to you. It was like as a child, know, children should be seen and not heard, especially as a girl. It was, yeah, just feeling very not valued.
Sarah Doucette (31:10.73)
Mm.
Jessica Vanrose (31:31.95)
for your opinion and yeah, just belittled frequently. So how did you get to that point when like, what were you able to do to help you release that guilt?
Sarah Doucette (31:45.235)
I mean, I think I'm still currently doing it, but it's for different things. You know, at the time it was just like, you're going to get divorced and you're not going to feel bad about it. And that was just like fight or flight, right? That was survival mode for me. And I was just like, well, I already don't have anybody talking to me. So they're not going to talk to me because I got divorced. Well, that's fine. You know, then I'm right where I was. And so was a lot of just like,
critical thinking and kind of logic -based stuff. At the time I was also in grad school and so I had some lovely women, older women in my cohort and talking with them, I think mentorship is one of the most beautiful thing, especially we as women can give to other women to just talk to each other and give advice and listen and you know.
we get so caught up in tearing each other down sometimes. like it's, yeah, so for me, you know, finding the right people to talk to, you know, having my cousin and then those women, you know, near me physically to talk to really helped, you know, telling them my thoughts and having them validate that like that's valid, like that's okay. You can think that like those are all okay things was really, really helpful. And then I mean,
I got into therapy after contemplating suicide myself one night, and I've been basically in therapy on and off since 2012. And I think that's also one of the best things that you can do for yourself. That was the first time I heard the term domestic violence. I mean I remember walking into my therapist's office and just being like, I don't know why my husband's so mean to me and like crying my eyes out. And she's like, well, tell me what you mean. And talking to her about some of these
these things that happen and she's like, well, you know, know, that's domestic violence. And I was like, no, I didn't. And then, and the same thing, like I talked to at my work, we had armed security. I was working for an insurance company and a lot of them were like retired police officers. And I remember talking to one of them that was very friendly and I talked to all the time and telling him a little bit about what happened. And he was like, that's, you know, you're describing domestic violence. And I was like,
Sarah Doucette (34:12.659)
No, didn't, I really didn't. it just seems so crazy that you wouldn't register it, but you really sometimes you don't.
Jessica Vanrose (34:19.798)
No, because like when you're there, when you're in that moment, you don't, at least in my experience, like I knew what was happening, but I didn't know what was happening. And similar to what you were saying before, I...
Sarah Doucette (34:34.132)
Mm
Jessica Vanrose (34:42.046)
had very, very low self worth. And so everything that was happening, like sure, it would come into my mind, like, I don't think this should be happening. I don't think he should be treating me this way. But then it would just be overrode by the feeling of like, well, no, like, this is actually what you deserve.
Sarah Doucette (34:46.719)
Mm -hmm
Sarah Doucette (35:04.553)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (35:07.977)
Yeah, and I think it's so interesting too because learning how to have good relationships after the fact, having a relationship with someone who is healthy can feel extremely uncomfortable. Extremely uncomfortable because your body is telling you in your cells, right? It's in your body at this point that like you don't deserve this and it's not what you're used to. So you feel uncomfortable. And that's why a lot of women
and men end up back in another toxic relationship. You always hear people like, always attract them. And it's not that that's what you attract them, but you're so used to it that when you see something different, I've heard people say like, well, there's just not enough passion.
Jessica Vanrose (35:41.379)
Mm
Jessica Vanrose (35:58.688)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, it's boring or yeah.
Sarah Doucette (36:00.372)
I'm like, yes. And I'm just like, give me boring, please. Yeah. So anyways, yeah, I think like that is a big thing is that, you know, people do, once they've been in one relationship like that, they do tend to find themselves in another one.
Jessica Vanrose (36:06.093)
Yes.
Jessica Vanrose (36:17.654)
Yeah, I went through a few after, not where it got physically abusive, just toxic in general, and some emotional abuse. But it took a long time to, one, become aware of, like, the patterns. And then also for me to, like, really do that healing. Yeah, but I mean,
Sarah Doucette (36:24.084)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (36:44.201)
Yeah. Yeah. don't know. That's why it's like therapy is so important. It's such an important part of the journey, right? To like help you kind of identify and recognize your patterns and unlearn them.
Jessica Vanrose (36:55.756)
Yeah, so for the therapy, think you were mentioning, I'm not sure if it was in another podcast interview, but it was talk therapy that you were doing, right? Yeah. And was that the only form?
Sarah Doucette (37:03.369)
Mm
Yeah. Yeah.
So that's really been the only form that I have done. I will say that writing the book was really, really helpful for me. So I mean, I everyone's trauma is different, right? I did get a PTSD diagnosis a while back. And one of the things is kind of disassociating with some of the things that happened in the memories. And so I would have these.
moments where I would be like triggered for lack of better term. I don't love that word, but whatever. That's what we've got to use. So I would feel triggered. So what that felt to me was a tightness in my chest, a sense of dread, anxiety, something bad is about to happen. And I wouldn't really know where it came from. Like, why am I feeling this way? And so when I was working on the book and I would be like, this, this memory just came to me.
And then it'd be like, the other day I was in the car and it was a similar situation. And then I started to feel some kind of way. And so I was able to kind of reintegrate some of the memories, which helped me identify the triggers, which helped me then, you know, kind of recheck in with my body and be like, okay, like you're safe, you're okay. So for people who maybe haven't experienced a trauma disorder,
Sarah Doucette (38:34.043)
or PTSS, sometimes they call it post -traumatic stress syndrome. There's a couple different terminologies out there for it. The best way that I describe it is like when you were a kid out on the playground and one of their kids come running up to you and their hand is raised in the air and you instinctually like you duck, right? Like there was no narrative process that went through your brain like.
Jessica Vanrose (38:53.44)
Okay, yeah.
Sarah Doucette (38:59.093)
Hey, there's this kid coming. He's got his hand raised. I wonder if he's going to hit me. I'm going to duck just in case. Like your body just knew that this has happened before and I'm going to move you. And so that's like those cellular memories. Like your body always remembers. And so that's when like people are trying to understand like what that's like. That's just how I describe it.
Jessica Vanrose (39:10.444)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (39:23.788)
Yeah, I think that's a great way to describe it actually. So I like I completely agree with everything that you're saying. so part of my therapy that helped me heal was it's called neurofeedback. Have you ever heard of that? No. So it was definitely interesting. They go in and they put this cap on you with a bunch of electrodes.
Sarah Doucette (39:42.208)
interesting. No.
Jessica Vanrose (39:54.122)
And I would just sit there watching basically like a game on a screen. But somehow, and I don't fully understand the science behind this, but it was tracking how my brain was processing things. And it would beep if something was off. And it like retrained your brain that way. Yeah, so I don't remember how many weeks I did it for.
Sarah Doucette (40:16.533)
interesting.
Jessica Vanrose (40:22.03)
want to say maybe six weeks that I did that. And then we did half an hour of talk therapy afterwards. And so when I actually went into this process, it was a clinical study. When I started the clinical study, they had tested my PTSD symptoms that I was experiencing them 60 % of the time. And by the end of the study, I
Sarah Doucette (40:34.59)
Mm
Sarah Doucette (40:45.994)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (40:51.118)
was only experiencing them 10 % of the time. It was massive, massive. So yeah, I strongly recommend neurofeedback as well as talk therapy just with the changes I've seen.
Sarah Doucette (40:53.973)
That's crazy. my gosh.
Sarah Doucette (41:00.691)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (41:06.91)
Yeah, and I have recently heard of the integrated family systems, IFS, which I have some interest in doing, like possibly doing some work with that. My current therapist and I have talked about it. She doesn't practice, but like she knows someone who does. So yeah, so there's a lot of different things out there. And I think...
Jessica Vanrose (41:13.162)
Yeah part yeah
Sarah Doucette (41:33.651)
like shop therapists, like you don't have to just like call someone and then meet with them and then you have to use them, right? If like you don't jive or you don't like their therapy methods and stuff like that, then don't use them. So yeah, definitely like finding the right match, someone you're comfortable with is really, really important.
Jessica Vanrose (41:52.876)
Definitely, but it is so worth it. And I am sure that writing the book was very cathartic. Very. Okay, so another question I down here. What were you feeling? What emotions did you need to work through when you saw the chance to get out and decided to take it? I know we talked about the guilt part a little bit. Was there anything else like
Sarah Doucette (41:59.634)
Yeah, it was.
Jessica Vanrose (42:22.434)
I'm sure there was some fear there.
Sarah Doucette (42:25.609)
You know, honestly, I was really quite naive because I still, like I said, didn't really identify as a victim of domestic violence. Like it wasn't until after we decided to get divorced and I had moved into the other room when that final assault happened and I just left. didn't quite realize what I was in. I didn't really know. So I think I was just kind of naive. I was scared to finally tell him that like
Jessica Vanrose (42:28.504)
Hmm.
Sarah Doucette (42:53.661)
I had been thinking about this nonstop for three days and like I wanted the divorce. And so when he kind of like non -reacted to it and he was like, I just remember him opening the fridge, grabbing a soda and was like, nope. And I was like, okay. And then he just walked into the other room after I told him like, well, I think we should. And he was like, okay. Like I just remember feeling like.
I did it. I told him he's okay with it. Like everyone's gonna be happy now. Like he hates me so he's gonna be happy that I'm leaving, that I'm gone and he doesn't have to worry about me anymore. I just like that was really what I was feeling in those moments.
Jessica Vanrose (43:34.4)
Okay, yeah, just like the relief of there not being a huge blowout fight when you said actually, yes, I think getting divorced is a good idea. Yeah, okay. So then what advice do you have for women trying to leave an abusive relationship? And like, how do we leave safely?
Sarah Doucette (43:45.757)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (43:58.613)
I mean, I think the biggest thing is if you can get yourself a network of people to help you is super important. There are so many domestic violence advocacy organizations out there. I mean, if you're in the United States, you can just text 88788 and text with someone with the National Domestic Violence Hotline, and then they can get you local resources where you are.
And then they can help you find temporary housing. They can help you find legal assistance. They, my gosh, there's so many things that I, like even I don't know all of the things they do. A lot of them can, they can get you clothes if you had to leave with just what's on your back. They can help get you toys for your kids. They can get you guardian ed litems assigned to your children so that they have representation in court. Like there's all these different things that they can do for you.
Almost all these organizations have emergency shelter locations, whether that's houses that they own or they work with local hotels that keep rooms available for people. All things I wish I knew about back when. So it's not a spur of the moment thing, right? So if you're thinking about it, start building up your network. Start talking to some friends.
And my advice to those friends, if your friend comes to you and tells you that things in their home behind closed doors are not what they seem when you hang out with them, believe them. I have seen and experienced it myself time and time again, where someone comes and says that, my husband is, you know, abusing me. He's, you know, however they decide to tell you. And the response is, I've never seen him act like that. Well, no.
Jessica Vanrose (45:50.531)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (45:51.263)
Kidding, you haven't seen him act like that. Because these guys are charismatic. They have big personalities. They are literally everyone's favorite person in the bar. you are going to love them. Their home life is going to be something different. So that's another, just want to get that out there. If someone comes to you and shows you enough trust to tell you that something's not right at home, believe them.
Jessica Vanrose (46:18.136)
Definitely.
Sarah Doucette (46:18.31)
and allow yourself to be proven wrong later if they're not telling the truth.
Jessica Vanrose (46:22.41)
Exactly, like it's more of a risk for you to not believe than to believe, so...
Sarah Doucette (46:27.189)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, and then just understand that the reason you have to have such good methodical planning is the most dangerous time in a survivor's life is those two to four weeks after leaving. That is when 75 % of women are murdered by their partner is during their attempt to leave or within those two to four weeks after they have left because the control is removed from them.
and they typically react. I mean, I live in Maine and we've had two incidences this summer where an abuser got out on bail and attempted to murder his partner. Luckily she survived, but it was a very big incident. And then just recently on the bridge that bridges New Hampshire and Maine together,
a man had killed his wife and then suicide by cop on the bridge and they found his deceased child in the car. So it's so dangerous that I just don't recommend to anyone just leave. And I say that too for the people out there who aren't in these situations to understand that they can't just leave. So when they do and you say to them, why did you stay so long? Well, because, you know, like people used to say to me like,
If my husband did that to me, he'd be sleeping on the couch. And I was just like, but you're 100 % positive that your husband's not going to kill you. So it's like super easy for you to make a flip comment like that. But understand that not everyone lives that way.
Jessica Vanrose (48:00.268)
Yeah, exactly.
Jessica Vanrose (48:08.492)
No, I've had those comments made to me and the same question and it's like, my only response is always you do not understand it until you're in it. Like, there is no like I before it happened to me. I said the same thing. was like, I would never be in that situation. And then I was. Yeah, like I'm a strong woman. I can take care. No, like
Sarah Doucette (48:28.061)
Yeah, I've never let anyone hit me or call me names or whatever. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (48:35.446)
this is a different situation. It's not that you're not strong. It's that you have to be smart. have to be strategic. Yeah, you have to be. No, for sure. took like, I mean, I wanted to leave almost immediately. It took probably eight months for everything to fall into place. so I'm in Canada. And I ended up in
Sarah Doucette (48:44.521)
You're strategic. Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (49:01.107)
Okay, so we're neighbors kind of.
Jessica Vanrose (49:04.424)
Yeah, exactly. I ended up in a women's shelter. So like there are so many services out there to help you. And yeah, just like it's doing some research. And if you are afraid to look something up on your computer or your phone, because it's being monitored, then there are
Sarah Doucette (49:10.879)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (49:29.342)
in person places that you can go and get information and speak to somebody or even a police station.
Sarah Doucette (49:37.749)
Yeah. mean, a lot of the locations in the United States, they have 24 -hour manned locations. Or if it's not manned, I was on the board of an organization, you can go ring the doorbell. Someone will answer the doorbell virtually. And if you're in distress, then someone would be there within 10 minutes to let you in and help. they're staffed 24 hours a day.
Jessica Vanrose (49:58.979)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (50:05.218)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (50:06.611)
And then, you know, I just, cause we're kind of talking a little bit about the response of, you know, people who aren't in these relationships. you know, talking about, you know, why, why do they stay? Why do you stay so long? I mean, there's the fear of retribution, but you know, that debt piece that we talked about, mean, imagine that you have no access to your money. so you, it's not like you could just move out and go somewhere else, right? Like you're, you're going to have to be homeless.
Do you have kids? That's gonna be even more difficult. Because a lot of times these guys will threaten with, well, you don't have any money, so I'm gonna take your kids. I'll get full custody of the kids. There's a lot of manipulation tactics that they use out there. But that being said, for the financial part of it, it also has a far reaching impact to the community as a whole. So when we kind of think that, well, that's an internal family issue there, it's none of my business. I'm gonna stay out of it.
So these are numbers for the United States. I don't know for Canada or UK or other countries, but it's 10 million adults, which is one in three women and one in four men experience some form of intimate partner violence. And whether that's just like stalking or all the way up to severe physical injury. And three women die per day.
Jessica Vanrose (51:04.643)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (51:34.069)
from domestic violence related crimes. 99 % of that 10 million cite financial and economic abuse occurred in the relationship. And 75 % of that 99 % state that money was a direct reason they couldn't get out of the relationship.
So how does that affect you listeners? So here's the number. These are the latest numbers. So domestic violence victims lose nearly eight million days of work, PTO, paid time off or leave without pay. That could be because they were too injured to go to work the next day. They had bruises they had to hide.
one of the children was hurt or whatever the reason may be, that's equivalent to 32 ,000 full -time jobs.
Jessica Vanrose (52:36.216)
Wow.
Sarah Doucette (52:37.653)
32 ,000 full -time jobs. So when we break that down to like the dollar amount, so the cost of intimate partner violence in the US alone exceeds $5 .8 billion per year. That's money that doesn't get stimulated into the economy. That is money that maybe gets spent on healthcare to take care of their injuries.
and just productivity losses, which means that they showed up for work, but maybe they're not 100 % their best because of what happened the night before. That attributes to 1 .8 billion of that 5 .8. And they recently posted some statistics where they interviewed CEOs of large businesses and they stated that they believe 50 % of their productivity issues are directly related to intimate partner violence related issues.
Jessica Vanrose (53:37.258)
Wow.
Sarah Doucette (53:39.135)
So it's a lot.
Jessica Vanrose (53:40.898)
That's a lot.
Sarah Doucette (53:42.805)
And I know like, I know in the United States, you know, we're very concerned about, you know, our economy and, you know, 42 or 32 ,000 full -time jobs. That's money that's not being spent on milk, eggs, the farmer's not getting the orders for meat. Like it just, it ripples through. and really it ripples globally, right? It affects imports, exports, it affects everything. So it's really a global issue that we're dealing with right now.
Jessica Vanrose (54:02.744)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (54:12.277)
And I think just more people need to realize that as a community, like we need to help and protect these people. And whether that's advocating for laws that don't allow domestic violence, people who have been convicted of a domestic violence offense from getting access to firearms, it could be.
Jessica Vanrose (54:21.472)
Yes, definitely.
Sarah Doucette (54:39.349)
I know in Maine right now, we have an issue with the fact that we don't have a public defender's office. And so we don't have enough defense attorneys to represent people. And so if you don't have a public defender, then the judge has to make a call. And in the incident that happened this summer, the judge made the call that she would lower his bail and allow him out until trial. And literally within 24 hours, he
went after her and two people died, three people lost their homes because he shot up propane tanks and lit three homes on fire in the neighborhood. And then he ended up dying. They had to call in the SWAT team and they ended up after a standoff with police officers killing him. So he died. A friend of the woman died who tried to protect her. She was able to escape. But I mean, it's a big problem. It's a big, big problem.
and we just need more voices.
Jessica Vanrose (55:41.152)
It is it's it's a bigger problem than I think most people are aware of. And so I know I'm not sure about what they have in the States. Here, we have something called Shine the Light. And it's all about just domestic violence awareness. And it's actually the month of November. You'll see a lot of places where the colors purple. So you'll see a lot of people wear purple.
Sarah Doucette (55:54.057)
Do
Sarah Doucette (56:01.749)
Okay.
Jessica Vanrose (56:08.862)
and we do some community events just to bring awareness to the topic. So, okay.
Sarah Doucette (56:14.815)
Yeah, so in the United States, it's October. October is domestic violence awareness month and purple as well. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (56:19.882)
Okay, yeah. So yeah, like if you even if you are not affected by this yourself, then there are still ways that you can get involved and try to help. Sarah, are you ready for our listener question? Okay. So she commented saying, Do partners ever grow out of physically abusing you?
Sarah Doucette (56:30.452)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (56:35.935)
I'm ready.
Jessica Vanrose (56:45.998)
The context is we both had one prior relationship, started dating at 18. He got physical around 20. Now they're 25. I don't know if it will come back or if it's done.
Sarah Doucette (57:06.485)
That's a really hard one because...
Sarah Doucette (57:11.477)
I think if there are substances involved, drugs or alcohol, people tend to get physical when they are under the influence of substance abuse. So when they were 20, was there drinking involved? And was it just the one isolated incident in which case?
I don't know as though they grow out of it. You now know that they have it in them to get to that point. Did they get help and counseling afterwards and that's why they've been good for five years or did they get clean? know, and so there's no longer a drug or alcohol involved and so, you know, they're out of it. I know that there are programs out there to rehabilitate.
Jessica Vanrose (57:42.2)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (58:06.657)
domestic abusers, I am not convinced that they truly work. But I think that there can be some improvement, especially if there was a contributing factor like substance abuse. Or maybe there's like, they have some sort of mental health trauma that they've gotten therapy for and they've been able to kind of like unpack that. But I think
Jessica Vanrose (58:24.174)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (58:36.809)
There are people out there who are just true sociopaths who are just like true narcissists that you're not going to be able to see that corrective behavior sustain. Five years feels like a good bridge of time. If like there was just one incident five years ago, then I'd say you're probably in.
an okay situation, but just to keep your wits about you and really analyze what were the circumstances surrounding that. I mean, I know like, okay, so normal people in their 20s was me at like 25, 26, because I was divorced by then, because I got married at 20. But, you know, like I was, you we were going out and we were having drinks and going to the clubs and going to bars and like having the time of my life, because I would never,
could have done that before. So I could see myself at 20 dating someone, you're at a party and something gets out of hand. I mean, it's never okay, but I just feel like we see a lot of domestic violence perpetrators recommit over and over and over again. So I don't know if that answers the question, but that's what I've got on that.
Jessica Vanrose (01:00:02.178)
Yeah, so I had some time to think about it and I had wrote down something. So what I'm saying is people have the ability to change, but they will only change for themselves. They're not going to change because somebody else asks you to asks them to. It's only if they want to change. And I don't want to say that it will never stop.
Sarah Doucette (01:00:15.508)
Mm -hmm.
Jessica Vanrose (01:00:31.448)
but I will say that I think it's too risky for you to find out.
Sarah Doucette (01:00:35.891)
Yeah, I would agree. And I was just thinking while you were saying that too, like life doesn't get easier. You know, like I'm in the thick of it right now. So I have my daughter just turned two in May and like it is a challenge every day to keep your sanity when you like, so if you're with this person and then you guys get married and then you have kids, like there's gonna be all these opportunities for like triggers and it's going to get more difficult.
Jessica Vanrose (01:00:42.71)
No, and yeah.
Sarah Doucette (01:01:05.001)
and it's going to get more complicated. So if they've already shown that like they can get to that level, I believe they will do it again.
Jessica Vanrose (01:01:05.292)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (01:01:13.026)
Yeah, and we know that abuse escalates too. So...
Sarah Doucette (01:01:18.229)
Correct. And is he verbally abusive in between, right? Like maybe he isn't physically hitting you, but like, you what is the, right. And it can escalate back up. yeah, I just, and it's so hard too, because like people do make mistakes and people can change, like you said. So, you know, I don't wanna like condemn this.
Jessica Vanrose (01:01:23.82)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (01:01:27.648)
But there's other abuse happening.
Jessica Vanrose (01:01:36.652)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (01:01:44.959)
person to like never getting in a good relationship but at the same time if it was me knowing what I know in hindsight I wouldn't take the risk.
Jessica Vanrose (01:01:55.286)
No, I think it's really risky, like in general, I think, and maybe this is hard to say for somebody who's in the middle of that situation, but really you gotta trust yourself. You've gotta trust what you're
Sarah Doucette (01:02:09.587)
If you're asking the question, I think you already know the answer. If it's in your mind enough that like...
Jessica Vanrose (01:02:12.706)
Yeah, exactly.
You worried about it?
Sarah Doucette (01:02:17.863)
Yeah, and you went on a social media platform and asked the question. I think that's your answer.
Jessica Vanrose (01:02:25.526)
Yeah, exactly. And you should trust yourself on that. And use some of the support that we mentioned to, you know, safely leave. So, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. This has been great. Do you have any final words or anything that you wanted to add?
Sarah Doucette (01:02:28.051)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah Doucette (01:02:33.066)
Yeah.
Sarah Doucette (01:02:46.109)
No, I think we're good. just appreciate everyone listening. yeah, if you are looking for my book, you can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble online. And it's Stronger Than That: A Domestic Violence Survivor Uncovers the Truth About Her Abuser. I do have a podcast that is not serious. So if you're looking for a lighthearted,
Jessica Vanrose (01:03:07.31)
Yeah, I will.
Sarah Doucette (01:03:15.733)
It's called What's My Age Again and it's a lifestyle podcast for those of us who are older than young. So it's just me and my girlfriend. We've been friends for 27 years and we just talk about living life as women of a certain age.
Jessica Vanrose (01:03:31.83)
I love that. I love that. I will definitely be checking that out.
Sarah Doucette (01:03:36.497)
Yeah, so we've been on hiatus for the summer. We're gonna hit record again here in a couple weeks, but we release on Tuesdays.
Jessica Vanrose (01:03:43.754)
awesome. And I will leave a link for the book below. It is definitely a great read. I have gotten through more than half of the book in like one sitting. So yeah. Yes.
Sarah Doucette (01:03:57.043)
Yeah. I've heard, I've heard that a lot. I've heard that a lot of people were like, I picked it up and I couldn't put it down. So I appreciate, I appreciate everyone's support. So yeah. And pass it on. You know, if you know someone that you think needs, needs to hear the story. So.
Jessica Vanrose (01:04:05.55)
Yeah.
Jessica Vanrose (01:04:12.718)
Exactly, needs the message. Okay, well thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Doucette (01:04:16.873)
Thank you, bye.
